want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

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want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Dan Hitt
For the notes i keep, sometimes i would like to sometimes include a
picture (jpg or png or maybe some other format).

emacs seems to have no problem displaying a picture but i would like
to add words to it.

So reading the file in emacs would be something like looking at html,
but i would prefer it something to be hot-editable, just like text
files are.

That is, i would prefer not to have any markup in the file whatsoever,
just a block of text, then a picture, then more text, then another
picture, and so on.  Perhaps an unprintable character could divide the
sections, and each section type could be recognized as either starting
with the magic words of a jpg or png and be presented as a picture, or
otherwise, presented as utf-8.  (So i guess the unprintable character
would be markup, but certainly i wouldn't want something as lengthy as
<img> to appear in the file.)

Ideally, emacs would recognize the type of file it was by a
mode-defining like at the top, like -*- text -*- (except, of course,
not text).

Does any file format/mode combo like this exist?

TIA for any clues!! :)

dan

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Danny YUE

On 2017-12-02 08:02, Dan Hitt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> For the notes i keep, sometimes i would like to sometimes include a
> picture (jpg or png or maybe some other format).
>
> emacs seems to have no problem displaying a picture but i would like
> to add words to it.
>
> So reading the file in emacs would be something like looking at html,
> but i would prefer it something to be hot-editable, just like text
> files are.
>
> That is, i would prefer not to have any markup in the file whatsoever,
> just a block of text, then a picture, then more text, then another
> picture, and so on.  Perhaps an unprintable character could divide the
> sections, and each section type could be recognized as either starting
> with the magic words of a jpg or png and be presented as a picture, or
> otherwise, presented as utf-8.  (So i guess the unprintable character
> would be markup, but certainly i wouldn't want something as lengthy as
> <img> to appear in the file.)
>
> Ideally, emacs would recognize the type of file it was by a
> mode-defining like at the top, like -*- text -*- (except, of course,
> not text).
>
> Does any file format/mode combo like this exist?
>
> TIA for any clues!! :)
>
> dan

Hi Dan,

I think Org Mode is what you are looking for.

From what you want, it contains following features:
- pure text based
- Emacs built-in, very easy to works with
- can embed pictures easily [[some_picture.jpg]]
- has many inline declaration for controlling titles, code blocks etc
- can be exported to Makrdown, HTML, etc etc

I personally used it to generate development documentation (pictures
included) in a small project.

It is really handy to edit org file in Emacs, then "C-e h h" to generate
HTML. The style of generated HTML file can be modified by external CSS
file.

Also, many people (including me) use Org Mode for task
scheduling/management, taking notes, writing documentations, blogs, etc.

I highly recommend you to give it a try. :-)

Danny

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Dan Hitt
On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 5:06 AM, Daian YUE <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2017-12-02 08:02, Dan Hitt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> For the notes i keep, sometimes i would like to sometimes include a
>> picture (jpg or png or maybe some other format).
>>
>> emacs seems to have no problem displaying a picture but i would like
>> to add words to it.
>>
>> So reading the file in emacs would be something like looking at html,
>> but i would prefer it something to be hot-editable, just like text
>> files are.
>>
>> That is, i would prefer not to have any markup in the file whatsoever,
>> just a block of text, then a picture, then more text, then another
>> picture, and so on.  Perhaps an unprintable character could divide the
>> sections, and each section type could be recognized as either starting
>> with the magic words of a jpg or png and be presented as a picture, or
>> otherwise, presented as utf-8.  (So i guess the unprintable character
>> would be markup, but certainly i wouldn't want something as lengthy as
>> <img> to appear in the file.)
>>
>> Ideally, emacs would recognize the type of file it was by a
>> mode-defining like at the top, like -*- text -*- (except, of course,
>> not text).
>>
>> Does any file format/mode combo like this exist?
>>
>> TIA for any clues!! :)
>>
>> dan
>
> Hi Dan,
>
> I think Org Mode is what you are looking for.
>
> From what you want, it contains following features:
> - pure text based
> - Emacs built-in, very easy to works with
> - can embed pictures easily [[some_picture.jpg]]
> - has many inline declaration for controlling titles, code blocks etc
> - can be exported to Makrdown, HTML, etc etc
>
> I personally used it to generate development documentation (pictures
> included) in a small project.
>
> It is really handy to edit org file in Emacs, then "C-e h h" to generate
> HTML. The style of generated HTML file can be modified by external CSS
> file.
>
> Also, many people (including me) use Org Mode for task
> scheduling/management, taking notes, writing documentations, blogs, etc.
>
> I highly recommend you to give it a try. :-)
>
> Danny
>

Thanks Danny!!

People talk a lot about org-mode but i had never actually used it
until you recommended it.

It looks very useful, and it can indeed show images
(org-redisplay-inline-images).  So i appreciate your introducing it to
me.

The one aspect of org mode (or html) that is a sort of problem is that
the images it shows cannot exist in the file itself, but rather float
in the file system (or presumably served remotely over http).

The problem here is breakage.  The image can get renamed or deleted,
and then the file.org is broken.

That's why i would like something where the image is copied directly
into the file.

Thanks again for the suggestion, which has an appearance close to what
i want, and which will be useful independently of whether i can
actually embed an image inside a file in a way emacs can see and
display it inline.

dan

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Marcin Borkowski-3

On 2017-12-02, at 21:31, Dan Hitt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The one aspect of org mode (or html) that is a sort of problem is that
> the images it shows cannot exist in the file itself, but rather float
> in the file system (or presumably served remotely over http).
>
> The problem here is breakage.  The image can get renamed or deleted,
> and then the file.org is broken.
>
> That's why i would like something where the image is copied directly
> into the file.

I'm pretty sure you could embed the image in some kind of a source
block, so that after executing it, the image file would appear in the
current directory.  I could try to make a proof of concept tomorrow if
you're interested.

--
Marcin Borkowski

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Dan Hitt
On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Marcin Borkowski <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2017-12-02, at 21:31, Dan Hitt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> The one aspect of org mode (or html) that is a sort of problem is that
>> the images it shows cannot exist in the file itself, but rather float
>> in the file system (or presumably served remotely over http).
>>
>> The problem here is breakage.  The image can get renamed or deleted,
>> and then the file.org is broken.
>>
>> That's why i would like something where the image is copied directly
>> into the file.
>
> I'm pretty sure you could embed the image in some kind of a source
> block, so that after executing it, the image file would appear in the
> current directory.  I could try to make a proof of concept tomorrow if
> you're interested.
>
> --
> Marcin Borkowski

Hi Marcin,

You are very nice, but what is a 'source block'?

Is this like cdata in html?

dan

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Dan Espen
In reply to this post by Danny YUE
Dan Hitt <[hidden email]> writes:

> On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 5:06 AM, Daian YUE <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 2017-12-02 08:02, Dan Hitt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> For the notes i keep, sometimes i would like to sometimes include a
>>> picture (jpg or png or maybe some other format).
>>>
>>> emacs seems to have no problem displaying a picture but i would like
>>> to add words to it.
>>>
>>> So reading the file in emacs would be something like looking at html,
>>> but i would prefer it something to be hot-editable, just like text
>>> files are.
>>>
>>> That is, i would prefer not to have any markup in the file whatsoever,
>>> just a block of text, then a picture, then more text, then another
>>> picture, and so on.  Perhaps an unprintable character could divide the
>>> sections, and each section type could be recognized as either starting
>>> with the magic words of a jpg or png and be presented as a picture, or
>>> otherwise, presented as utf-8.  (So i guess the unprintable character
>>> would be markup, but certainly i wouldn't want something as lengthy as
>>> <img> to appear in the file.)
>>>
>>> Ideally, emacs would recognize the type of file it was by a
>>> mode-defining like at the top, like -*- text -*- (except, of course,
>>> not text).
>>>
>>> Does any file format/mode combo like this exist?
>>>
>>> TIA for any clues!! :)
>>>
>>> dan
>>
>> Hi Dan,
>>
>> I think Org Mode is what you are looking for.
>>
>> From what you want, it contains following features:
>> - pure text based
>> - Emacs built-in, very easy to works with
>> - can embed pictures easily [[some_picture.jpg]]
>> - has many inline declaration for controlling titles, code blocks etc
>> - can be exported to Makrdown, HTML, etc etc
>>
>> I personally used it to generate development documentation (pictures
>> included) in a small project.
>>
>> It is really handy to edit org file in Emacs, then "C-e h h" to generate
>> HTML. The style of generated HTML file can be modified by external CSS
>> file.
>>
>> Also, many people (including me) use Org Mode for task
>> scheduling/management, taking notes, writing documentations, blogs, etc.
>>
>> I highly recommend you to give it a try. :-)
>>
>> Danny
>>
>
> Thanks Danny!!
>
> People talk a lot about org-mode but i had never actually used it
> until you recommended it.
>
> It looks very useful, and it can indeed show images
> (org-redisplay-inline-images).  So i appreciate your introducing it to
> me.
>
> The one aspect of org mode (or html) that is a sort of problem is that
> the images it shows cannot exist in the file itself, but rather float
> in the file system (or presumably served remotely over http).
>
> The problem here is breakage.  The image can get renamed or deleted,
> and then the file.org is broken.
>
> That's why i would like something where the image is copied directly
> into the file.
>
> Thanks again for the suggestion, which has an appearance close to what
> i want, and which will be useful independently of whether i can
> actually embed an image inside a file in a way emacs can see and
> display it inline.

If your images are SVG, HTML lets you code images inline.

<https://www.w3schools.com/html/html5_svg.asp>

Emacs shr.el shows SVGs.

Especially if your images are line drawings, SVG is pretty neat.
Of course SVG is useless for photos.

--
Dan Espen
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Dan Hitt
On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Dan Espen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If your images are SVG, HTML lets you code images inline.
>
> <https://www.w3schools.com/html/html5_svg.asp>
>
> Emacs shr.el shows SVGs.
>
> Especially if your images are line drawings, SVG is pretty neat.
> Of course SVG is useless for photos.
>
> --
> Dan Espen

Thanks Dan!

That's also useful info that i was ignorant of (although it makes
sense in 20-20 hindsight).

My pictures are not SVG, but this is useful for other cases i think.

dan

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Tomas Zerolo
In reply to this post by Dan Hitt
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On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 02:47:23PM -0800, Dan Hitt wrote:

[...]

> Hi Marcin,
>
> You are very nice, but what is a 'source block'?
>
> Is this like cdata in html?

Yes and no :-)

In org mode, a source block looks like

#+BEGIN_SRC C
void img_free(img *image)
{
  if(image) {
    if(image->pixels) free(image->pixels);
    free(image);
  }
}
#+END_SRC

Meaning: the code between this markup is C source code. Thus Org
knows, for many languages:

  - how to highlight it and edit it, via the appropriate
    Emacs mode

  - how to "execute" it (and if you wish, insert the
    results into your buffer). Yes, for C, Org would
    call the compiler for you, for a snippet like the
    above pack some boilerplate around it with a main
    function calling into your func, and printing the
    return value, for org to collect the result (that's
    Org babel magic).

There are many ways to pass parameters to source code blocks,
which controls their behaviour.

Definitely worth a look.

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Dan Hitt
On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 2:10 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 02:47:23PM -0800, Dan Hitt wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Hi Marcin,
>>
>> You are very nice, but what is a 'source block'?
>>
>> Is this like cdata in html?
>
> Yes and no :-)
>
> In org mode, a source block looks like
>
> #+BEGIN_SRC C
> void img_free(img *image)
> {
>   if(image) {
>     if(image->pixels) free(image->pixels);
>     free(image);
>   }
> }
> #+END_SRC
>
> Meaning: the code between this markup is C source code. Thus Org
> knows, for many languages:
>
>   - how to highlight it and edit it, via the appropriate
>     Emacs mode
>
>   - how to "execute" it (and if you wish, insert the
>     results into your buffer). Yes, for C, Org would
>     call the compiler for you, for a snippet like the
>     above pack some boilerplate around it with a main
>     function calling into your func, and printing the
>     return value, for org to collect the result (that's
>     Org babel magic).
>
> There are many ways to pass parameters to source code blocks,
> which controls their behaviour.
>
> Definitely worth a look.
>
> Cheers
> - -- t
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> =q2aB
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>

Wow, i mean, just wow.

Presumably there's some confirmation necessary for compilation and
execution, or otherwise it would be some kind of multi-lingual hole
(??)

I have to think about this for a few days :) :) . . . . .

dan

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Tomas Zerolo
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On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 11:17:48AM -0800, Dan Hitt wrote:

[...]

> Wow, i mean, just wow.

That was more or less my reaction when I discovered org-babel, yes :-)

> Presumably there's some confirmation necessary for compilation and
> execution, or otherwise it would be some kind of multi-lingual hole
> (??)

Yes, by default you get asked before each execution.

> I have to think about this for a few days :) :) . . . . .

Enjoy
- -- t
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Marcin Borkowski-3
In reply to this post by Marcin Borkowski-3

On 2017-12-02, at 22:08, Marcin Borkowski <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2017-12-02, at 21:31, Dan Hitt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> The one aspect of org mode (or html) that is a sort of problem is that
>> the images it shows cannot exist in the file itself, but rather float
>> in the file system (or presumably served remotely over http).
>>
>> The problem here is breakage.  The image can get renamed or deleted,
>> and then the file.org is broken.
>>
>> That's why i would like something where the image is copied directly
>> into the file.
>
> I'm pretty sure you could embed the image in some kind of a source
> block, so that after executing it, the image file would appear in the
> current directory.  I could try to make a proof of concept tomorrow if
> you're interested.

OK, so here's my (quite simplistic, but apparently working well enough)
solution:

http://mbork.pl/2017-12-04_Embedding_files_in_Org-mode

Hth,

--
Marcin Borkowski

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Emanuel Berg-4
Marcin Borkowski wrote:

> OK, so here's my (quite simplistic, but
> apparently working well enough) solution:

As long as it works, the simpler the better.

> http://mbork.pl/2017-12-04_Embedding_files_in_Org-mode

Why don't you post the reply/code here as well?

The argument name (filename) doesn't match the
reference in the docstring ("FILE"), other than
that it seems good to me...

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573


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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Dan Hitt
In reply to this post by Marcin Borkowski-3
On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 2:02 AM, Marcin Borkowski <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2017-12-02, at 22:08, Marcin Borkowski <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-12-02, at 21:31, Dan Hitt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> The one aspect of org mode (or html) that is a sort of problem is that
>>> the images it shows cannot exist in the file itself, but rather float
>>> in the file system (or presumably served remotely over http).
>>>
>>> The problem here is breakage.  The image can get renamed or deleted,
>>> and then the file.org is broken.
>>>
>>> That's why i would like something where the image is copied directly
>>> into the file.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure you could embed the image in some kind of a source
>> block, so that after executing it, the image file would appear in the
>> current directory.  I could try to make a proof of concept tomorrow if
>> you're interested.
>
> OK, so here's my (quite simplistic, but apparently working well enough)
> solution:
>
> http://mbork.pl/2017-12-04_Embedding_files_in_Org-mode
>
> Hth,
>
> --
> Marcin Borkowski

Awesome!

Thanks Marcin!

So i can archive my image right in my org file, and if it gets lost,
it can be recreated by running the code that M-xorg-insert-file
created.  And it works on my system.

:)

dan

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Emanuel Berg-4
Dan Hitt wrote:

> Awesome! [...]

I'm a little lost as to this enthusiasm.
Can anyone provide me with a complete example
where it shows it's best side? (The topic
doesn't have to be one that I'm familiar with.)

If the problem is "how do I combine images with
text using Emacs" isn't the answer either LaTeX
(for advanced, but mostly static/unchanging
reference documents and thesis that are often
printed and should look the same everywhere)
*or* HTML (basic, search-engine friendly,
mildly interactive hyper-material for the web)?

Emacs with major modes for LaTeX, Biblatex, the
Makefile, HTML, CSS and whatever else you
might need...

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573


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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Tomas Zerolo
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On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:21:40PM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:

> Dan Hitt wrote:
>
> > Awesome! [...]
>
> I'm a little lost as to this enthusiasm.
> Can anyone provide me with a complete example
> where it shows it's best side? (The topic
> doesn't have to be one that I'm familiar with.)
>
> If the problem is "how do I combine images with
> text using Emacs" isn't the answer either LaTeX
> (for advanced, but mostly static/unchanging
> reference documents and thesis that are often
> printed and should look the same everywhere)
> *or* HTML (basic, search-engine friendly,
> mildly interactive hyper-material for the web)?

The one doesn't exclude the other. The nice thing with
Org mode is that the image is embedded in the Emacs
buffer. And you can generate good-looking LaTeX *and*
HTML as "output formats". Plus, of course, this Babel
thing.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Emanuel Berg-4
tomás wrote:

> The one doesn't exclude the other. The nice
> thing with Org mode is that the image is
> embedded in the Emacs buffer.

You mean for your own viewing pleasure?

Or what do you do with the Emacs buffer that
has an image embedded?

> And you can generate good-looking LaTeX *and*
> HTML as "output formats". Plus, of course,
> this Babel thing.

Again, an example would be good...

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573


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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Tomas Zerolo
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On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:00:02PM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> tomás wrote:
>
> > The one doesn't exclude the other. The nice
> > thing with Org mode is that the image is
> > embedded in the Emacs buffer.
>
> You mean for your own viewing pleasure?

Basically, yes. If you have many images, it can be
sometimes less confusing to see them while editing.

> Or what do you do with the Emacs buffer that
> has an image embedded?
>
> > And you can generate good-looking LaTeX *and*
> > HTML as "output formats". Plus, of course,
> > this Babel thing.
>
> Again, an example would be good...

Someone already posted an example on how to embed an image
in an Org mode buffer. I embedded an example on how to
embed a source code snippet whose result gets automatically
embedded in the buffer.

I'll let the online documentation speak for itself:

  http://orgmode.org/

If you have more specific questions... go ahead!

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Emanuel Berg-4
tomás wrote:

> If you have more specific questions...
> go ahead!

Again, is there an example where this has been
put to good use?

I can provide examples from the LaTeX and HTML
world - the URL in my signature, and this book
in LaTeX:

    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/borta/book.pdf

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573


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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Marcin Borkowski-3
In reply to this post by Dan Hitt

On 2017-12-04, at 21:35, Dan Hitt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Awesome!
>
> Thanks Marcin!
>
> So i can archive my image right in my org file, and if it gets lost,
> it can be recreated by running the code that M-xorg-insert-file
> created.  And it works on my system.

You're welcome!

Fun fact: it took me less than 30 minutes to find the relevant Elisp
functions, code and write the blog post.

Best,

--
Marcin Borkowski

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Re: want a file format easily edited and read by emacs that allows (multiple) pictures to be included

Marcin Borkowski-3
In reply to this post by Emanuel Berg-4

On 2017-12-04, at 22:21, Emanuel Berg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dan Hitt wrote:
>
>> Awesome! [...]
>
> I'm a little lost as to this enthusiasm.
> Can anyone provide me with a complete example
> where it shows it's best side? (The topic
> doesn't have to be one that I'm familiar with.)
>
> If the problem is "how do I combine images with
> text using Emacs" isn't the answer either LaTeX
> (for advanced, but mostly static/unchanging
> reference documents and thesis that are often
> printed and should look the same everywhere)
> *or* HTML (basic, search-engine friendly,
> mildly interactive hyper-material for the web)?
>
> Emacs with major modes for LaTeX, Biblatex, the
> Makefile, HTML, CSS and whatever else you
> might need...

No, I think you got it wrong.  This does not solve the problem
LaTeX/HTML solves.  This solves (Org-way) the problem that tar solves.

Best,

--
Marcin Borkowski

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