"If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

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"If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Alan Mackenzie
In article <[hidden email]> you wrote:

[ .... ]

> If you're still seeing problems, please reopen.

Yes, but how?

The OP of a bug report is not going to be able to reopen it, since the
way to do this is so arcane and obscure.  You're not giving her a fair
chance!

If you're sincere about OPs reopening closed bugs, how about giving them
a recipe to do so, or at least a pointer to the doc which explains how
to?

> --
> (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
>    bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).


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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Lars Ingebrigtsen
Alan Mackenzie <[hidden email]> writes:

>> If you're still seeing problems, please reopen.
>
> Yes, but how?

Just responding is enough, and then somebody who knows how will reopen.

--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Óscar Fuentes
Lars Ingebrigtsen <[hidden email]> writes:

> Alan Mackenzie <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>>> If you're still seeing problems, please reopen.
>>
>> Yes, but how?
>
> Just responding is enough, and then somebody who knows how will reopen.

IMO this is not satisfactory. The message says "do this", but there
is no clue about how to do "this".

Debbugs is the most user-hostile bug tracking system that I deal with.
In fact, I don't consider it a bug tracking system at all: it is a poor
mailing list with some attached hacks for associating tags to threads.

Please kill Debbugs.


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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Lars Ingebrigtsen
Óscar Fuentes <[hidden email]> writes:

> IMO this is not satisfactory. The message says "do this", but there
> is no clue about how to do "this".
>
> Debbugs is the most user-hostile bug tracking system that I deal with.

All the user has to do is hit the "reply" button in the mail reader
they're using.  How is that user-hostile?

--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Óscar Fuentes
Lars Ingebrigtsen <[hidden email]> writes:

> Óscar Fuentes <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> IMO this is not satisfactory. The message says "do this", but there
>> is no clue about how to do "this".
>>
>> Debbugs is the most user-hostile bug tracking system that I deal with.
>
> All the user has to do is hit the "reply" button in the mail reader
> they're using.  How is that user-hostile?

The message says "reopen", not "reply".

And how is it acceptable to depend on the willingness and availability
of somebody else to effectively reopen the bug?


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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Eli Zaretskii
In reply to this post by Óscar Fuentes
> From: Óscar Fuentes <[hidden email]>
> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:42:03 +0100
>
> > Just responding is enough, and then somebody who knows how will reopen.
>
> IMO this is not satisfactory. The message says "do this", but there
> is no clue about how to do "this".

Maybe we should mention admin/notes/bugtracker (which does describe
this) in CONTRIBUTE.

> Please kill Debbugs.

Please be serious.

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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Eli Zaretskii
In reply to this post by Lars Ingebrigtsen
> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <[hidden email]>
> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:49:10 +0100
> Cc: [hidden email]
>
> > Debbugs is the most user-hostile bug tracking system that I deal with.
>
> All the user has to do is hit the "reply" button in the mail reader
> they're using.  How is that user-hostile?

It's "the most user-hostile bug tracking system" in the same sense as
democracy is the worst form of government.

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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Dmitry Gutov
In reply to this post by Lars Ingebrigtsen
On 17.11.2019 19:49, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> All the user has to do is hit the "reply" button in the mail reader
> they're using.  How is that user-hostile?

It's like an adventure computer game where you need to type what to do,
what do say, etc. Heartwarming to someone who grew up in that era and,
like, 30 years out of date.

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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Lars Ingebrigtsen
Dmitry Gutov <[hidden email]> writes:

> On 17.11.2019 19:49, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
>> All the user has to do is hit the "reply" button in the mail reader
>> they're using.  How is that user-hostile?
>
> It's like an adventure computer game where you need to type what to
> do, what do say, etc. Heartwarming to someone who grew up in that era
> and, like, 30 years out of date.

Users don't need to do any of that -- they just send and email, and us
busy bee Emacs peeps issue the magical incantations.

It's a Mechanical Turk kind of bug tracker.  But it sure is user
friendly.

--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Dmitry Gutov
In reply to this post by Eli Zaretskii
On 17.11.2019 19:59, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> Maybe we should mention admin/notes/bugtracker (which does describe
> this) in CONTRIBUTE

Err, only a minority of people who have to use Debbugs will ever read
CONTRIBUTE. (I hope.)

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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Dmitry Gutov
In reply to this post by Lars Ingebrigtsen
On 17.11.2019 20:09, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> Users don't need to do any of that -- they just send and email

They don't know that. And a certain percentage *will* be too shy to do
anything for fear of bothering anybody.

Some other percentage will spend 10 minutes googling "how to freaking
close a Debbugs bug report", then do that, and then do that again
several months later (if they don't open/close bugs here often). I
am/was like that myself.

There's nothing friendly about that process, by modern standards.

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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Óscar Fuentes
In reply to this post by Eli Zaretskii
Eli Zaretskii <[hidden email]> writes:

>> IMO this is not satisfactory. The message says "do this", but there
>> is no clue about how to do "this".
>
> Maybe we should mention admin/notes/bugtracker (which does describe
> this) in CONTRIBUTE.
>
>> Please kill Debbugs.
>
> Please be serious.

I'm being absolutely serious. You are proposing to put a reference to a
650 line text file on a 400 line text file for solving something that is
self-evident on every other bug tracker.

Debbugs is the only user-facing bug tracker I know that requires
studying its magic incantations to complete tasks which are trivial on
any other system. Not to mention that, after all that studying, it still
won't provide basic features which exist and are trivial to use
elsewhere.

Debbugs is a non-starter for any project that expects interaction with
its user base.


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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Andreas Schwab-2
In reply to this post by Dmitry Gutov
On Nov 17 2019, Dmitry Gutov wrote:

> There's nothing friendly about that process, by modern standards.

It is user-friendly like Unix.  That's why it will still be around in 25
years.

Andreas.

--
Andreas Schwab, [hidden email]
GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510  2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1
"And now for something completely different."

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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Eli Zaretskii
In reply to this post by Dmitry Gutov
> From: Dmitry Gutov <[hidden email]>
> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:06:32 +0200
> Cc: [hidden email]
>
> On 17.11.2019 19:49, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> > All the user has to do is hit the "reply" button in the mail reader
> > they're using.  How is that user-hostile?
>
> It's like an adventure computer game where you need to type what to do,
> what do say, etc. Heartwarming to someone who grew up in that era and,
> like, 30 years out of date.

The Adventure game was written around 1975, so it's more like 45
years.

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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Eli Zaretskii
In reply to this post by Dmitry Gutov
> Cc: [hidden email]
> From: Dmitry Gutov <[hidden email]>
> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:11:57 +0200
>
> On 17.11.2019 19:59, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > Maybe we should mention admin/notes/bugtracker (which does describe
> > this) in CONTRIBUTE
>
> Err, only a minority of people who have to use Debbugs will ever read
> CONTRIBUTE. (I hope.)

But even less people will read admin/notes/bugtracker.  So we might
gain some discoverability.

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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Lars Ingebrigtsen
In reply to this post by Dmitry Gutov
Dmitry Gutov <[hidden email]> writes:

> On 17.11.2019 20:09, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
>> Users don't need to do any of that -- they just send and email
>
> They don't know that. And a certain percentage *will* be too shy to do
> anything for fear of bothering anybody.

OK, I'll start saying "send a mail to reopen" or something.

> Some other percentage will spend 10 minutes googling "how to freaking
> close a Debbugs bug report", then do that, and then do that again
> several months later (if they don't open/close bugs here often). I
> am/was like that myself.
>
> There's nothing friendly about that process, by modern standards.

That's developer unfriendliness, not user unfriendliness, in my opinion.
And I don't remember those details at all -- that's why we have
debbugs-gnu, which is a lot friendlier (to me) than any web-based bug
tracker.

--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Dmitry Gutov
On 17.11.2019 20:36, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> That's developer unfriendliness, not user unfriendliness, in my opinion.

No, we expect end users to file reports through Debbugs. And then,
apparently, be able to close them.

> And I don't remember those details at all -- that's why we have
> debbugs-gnu, which is a lot friendlier (to me) than any web-based bug
> tracker.

That's for us, not them.

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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Lars Ingebrigtsen
Dmitry Gutov <[hidden email]> writes:

> On 17.11.2019 20:36, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
>> That's developer unfriendliness, not user unfriendliness, in my opinion.
>
> No, we expect end users to file reports through Debbugs. And then,
> apparently, be able to close them.

I've never expected a user to be able to close a bug.

--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Eli Zaretskii
In reply to this post by Óscar Fuentes
> From: Óscar Fuentes <[hidden email]>
> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 19:25:38 +0100
>
> > Please be serious.
>
> I'm being absolutely serious.

Then you are simply wrong.

> Debbugs is a non-starter for any project that expects interaction with
> its user base.

A bug tracker should first and foremost help those who work on
triaging and fixing bugs.  I have experience with 3 other issue
tracking systems, and none of them is significantly better in this
aspect; some are worse.

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Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:]

Eli Zaretskii
In reply to this post by Dmitry Gutov
> From: Dmitry Gutov <[hidden email]>
> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:37:26 +0200
> Cc: Óscar Fuentes <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
>
> On 17.11.2019 20:36, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> > That's developer unfriendliness, not user unfriendliness, in my opinion.
>
> No, we expect end users to file reports through Debbugs. And then,
> apparently, be able to close them.

No, we don't expect them to close bugs, not normally.  Just to file
them, which boils down to sending an email to a certain address.

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