bug#34289: Mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus

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bug#34289: Mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus

積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
On (info "(gnus) Subscription Commands")
mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus.
See also http://jidanni.org/comp/configuration/
Yes, it probably has to do with levels...
OK mention that one must remove them from Mail/active too... and maybe by hand from .newsrc.eld .
Gnus v5.13
GNU Emacs 26.1 (build 2, i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.2)
 of 2018-12-27, modified by Debian



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bug#34289: Mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus

Eric Abrahamsen-2
積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <[hidden email]> writes:

> On (info "(gnus) Subscription Commands")
> mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus.
> See also http://jidanni.org/comp/configuration/
> Yes, it probably has to do with levels...
> OK mention that one must remove them from Mail/active too... and maybe by hand from .newsrc.eld .

What mail backend is this happening with? It shouldn't be that
difficult to kill groups permanently...



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bug#34289: Mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus

Lars Ingebrigtsen
In reply to this post by 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <[hidden email]> writes:

> On (info "(gnus) Subscription Commands")
> mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus.
> See also http://jidanni.org/comp/configuration/
> Yes, it probably has to do with levels...
> OK mention that one must remove them from Mail/active too... and maybe by hand from .newsrc.eld .

No, you shouldn't have to do any of those things.  Killing a group with
C-k should leave them dead (on all the mainstream Gnus backends).

What groups display this behaviour?

--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no



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bug#34289: Mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus

積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
In reply to this post by 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
>>>>> "LI" == Lars Ingebrigtsen <[hidden email]> writes:
LI> 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <[hidden email]> writes:

>> On (info "(gnus) Subscription Commands")
>> mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus.
>> See also http://jidanni.org/comp/configuration/
>> Yes, it probably has to do with levels...
>> OK mention that one must remove them from Mail/active too... and maybe by hand from .newsrc.eld .

LI> No, you shouldn't have to do any of those things.  Killing a group with
LI> C-k should leave them dead (on all the mainstream Gnus backends).

LI> What groups display this behaviour?

All I remember is I only use mail groups and no usenet groups.



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bug#34289: Mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus

Lars Ingebrigtsen
積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <[hidden email]> writes:

> LI> No, you shouldn't have to do any of those things.  Killing a group with
> LI> C-k should leave them dead (on all the mainstream Gnus backends).
>
> LI> What groups display this behaviour?
>
> All I remember is I only use mail groups and no usenet groups.

And if you kill a group, it comes back the next time you start Gnus?
Have you set `gnus-save-killed-list' to nil?

--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no



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bug#34289: Mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus

積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
In reply to this post by 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
>>>>> "LI" == Lars Ingebrigtsen <[hidden email]> writes:

LI> And if you kill a group, it comes back the next time you start Gnus?
LI> Have you set `gnus-save-killed-list' to nil?

!gnus-save-killed-list is a variable defined in ‘gnus-start.el’.
!Its value is nil
!Original value was t
!You should always set ‘gnus-check-new-newsgroups’ to ‘ask-server’...(yes)



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bug#34289: Mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus

Lars Ingebrigtsen
積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <[hidden email]> writes:

>>>>>> "LI" == Lars Ingebrigtsen <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> LI> And if you kill a group, it comes back the next time you start Gnus?
> LI> Have you set `gnus-save-killed-list' to nil?
>
> !gnus-save-killed-list is a variable defined in ‘gnus-start.el’.
> !Its value is nil
> !Original value was t
> !You should always set ‘gnus-check-new-newsgroups’ to ‘ask-server’...(yes)

Then this isn't a bug; if you don't save the killed list the groups will
come back (unless you a bunch of other settings).

--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no



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bug#34289: Mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus

積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
In reply to this post by 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
>>>>> "LI" == Lars Ingebrigtsen <[hidden email]> writes:

LI> Then this isn't a bug; if you don't save the killed list the groups will
LI> come back (unless you a bunch of other settings).

OK then gnus-save-killed-list docstring should warn about that and say how to get
rid of groups forever for real.



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bug#34289: Mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus

Lars Ingebrigtsen
積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <[hidden email]> writes:

>>>>>> "LI" == Lars Ingebrigtsen <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> LI> Then this isn't a bug; if you don't save the killed list the groups will
> LI> come back (unless you a bunch of other settings).
>
> OK then gnus-save-killed-list docstring should warn about that and say
> how to get
> rid of groups forever for real.

I think the doc string warns about that.  And there's no way to get rid
of groups forever for real; that's not how NNTP works.

--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no



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bug#34289: Mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus

積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
In reply to this post by 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
LI> I think the doc string warns about that.  And there's no way to get rid
LI> of groups forever for real; that's not how NNTP works.

I was using only various mailboxes / folders, not NNTP.



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bug#34289: Mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus

Lars Ingebrigtsen
積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <[hidden email]> writes:

> LI> I think the doc string warns about that.  And there's no way to get rid
> LI> of groups forever for real; that's not how NNTP works.
>
> I was using only various mailboxes / folders, not NNTP.

If you want to delete an IMAP mail box, you delete it on the server.

--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no



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bug#34289: Mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus

積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
In reply to this post by 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
LI> If you want to delete an IMAP mail box, you delete it on the server.

I recall I had split up my mail via .procmailrc into various local file
mailboxes, and then told gnus where they were.

I long ago removed those files, and tried my best to get gnus to forget
them completely...



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bug#34289: Mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus

Eric Abrahamsen-2
積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <[hidden email]> writes:

> LI> If you want to delete an IMAP mail box, you delete it on the server.
>
> I recall I had split up my mail via .procmailrc into various local file
> mailboxes, and then told gnus where they were.
>
> I long ago removed those files, and tried my best to get gnus to forget
> them completely...

If you're dealing with local mailboxes, you should be able to to "C-u G
<del>" on the group to actually remove the group from your filesystem.
If you've already deleted the directory from your filesystem... I don't
know why it would be coming back. A simple "C-k" is enough to
unsubscribe you, and if the directories don't exist at all anymore, Gnus
shouldn't resurrect them. Were these groups on nnml, nnmaildir, nn?...

Eric



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bug#34289: Mention why killed groups come back anyway next time one starts gnus

積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
In reply to this post by 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
ANYWAY, let's take a look at why I use
$ mutt -f /some/mbox
instead of gnus, for various simple mboxs laying around my system. For
gnus all I know is once it gets hold of a mbox, it is very hard to
completely eliminate the knowledge of it from gnus' vast dark interiors
with gnus' vast dark commands.

You fellows were talking about even viewing debbugs with gnus... no way!
It would surely leave some list of read articles somewhere in gnus vast
interiors (including SCORE lists, group kill lists, who knows.)

In fact, just like Google has a Data Retention Policy statement, the
gnus manual should, as an appendix, list all the ways one can be sure he
can finally get rid of each type of nn-this, nn-that mailbox, (along
with article KILL lists, group KILL lists, article SCORE lists, who
knows.) (Yes, gnus retains data on your home computer, not in the Gnus
Towers, but still needs a statement on how to get rid of it.)

I don't care one bit about "data privacy". I'm just looking at this from
the point of "can the user successfully reduce the size (bytes, lines)
of the various pieces of gnus back to what they were before he
'subscribed' to some mailbox. (Also what if he doesn't want to remove
the mailbox from the system, he just doesn't want gnus to "know about it
at all" anymore.)

Yes mention that gnus keeps some items (messages) for one week for your
own good... and yes documents how to get rid of them now...

And mention how the user can double check to be sure that he really did
clean the thing he wanted to out of gnus' vast Orwellian databases
that one currently must use lsof(1) and find ~ -mmin 111 etc. to track
down!

In fact
(info "(gnus) The End")
should also mention let's say the user wanted to eliminate every trace
of gnus's stuff from his $HOME.

First go through all the key strokes he needs.

That should probably leave a few lisp database files/directory
structure, almost zero size with no entries.

Then probably a few shell commands are needed to get rid of those too,
so he can finally get back to day 1 state before he started.

I'm not asking you to tell me the answer. (I long ago solved it via
"forensic analysis" and now that the data is gone, I also naturally
forgot the details.) I'm saying all this needs to be added as an
appendix to (info "(gnus) The End"). Getting rid of the memory of 1.
individual messages 2. groups 3. entire gnus.

Sure "It's all already documented. Bye." Yeah, scattered among the
various info pages, with no dedicated page for those who want to "How do
I permanently remove my ...".