The name gnus-cloud.el

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The name gnus-cloud.el

Richard Stallman
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[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I had some followups, last one:
  > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2016-07/msg00617.html

I looked at the old conversation.  It was said that the name
gnus-cloud.el was a joke.  I asked, what is the joke, and no one said.

Now that the file is installed, I can look at it.  I don't see
anything in the file that is evidently a joke.  What is the joke?

Back then, you said,

    OK, I'll let you and Lars and the maintainers figure it out. Let's do
    the rename, if that's the decision, after the current gnus-cloud code is
    reviewed and merged, or it will get confusing (because the feature
    branch currently removes the old gnus-sync.el).

That time has now arrived.

The file starts with this:

;;; gnus-cloud.el --- storing and retrieving data via IMAP

So how about renaming it to gnus-imap.el?  That name is clear and fits
what the program does.

Or perhaps gnus-imap-sync.el; it would say more about what functionality
the file provides.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See https://stallman.org/skype.html.


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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Ted Zlatanov
On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 16:26:57 -0500 Richard Stallman <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> I had some followups, last one:
>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2016-07/msg00617.html

RS> I looked at the old conversation.  It was said that the name
RS> gnus-cloud.el was a joke.  I asked, what is the joke, and no one said.

RS> Now that the file is installed, I can look at it.  I don't see
RS> anything in the file that is evidently a joke.  What is the joke?

I think the main joke is that it's the kind of cloud that the GNU
project might produce. But it's only funny until we start analyzing it.

RS> Back then, you said,

RS>     OK, I'll let you and Lars and the maintainers figure it out. Let's do
RS>     the rename, if that's the decision, after the current gnus-cloud code is
RS>     reviewed and merged, or it will get confusing (because the feature
RS>     branch currently removes the old gnus-sync.el).

RS> That time has now arrived.

I don't see a discussion between you and Lars and the maintainers.
Please come to an agreement with them. My vote is for the Silly Party.

RS> The file starts with this:

RS> ;;; gnus-cloud.el --- storing and retrieving data via IMAP

RS> So how about renaming it to gnus-imap.el?  That name is clear and fits
RS> what the program does.

RS> Or perhaps gnus-imap-sync.el; it would say more about what functionality
RS> the file provides.

I'd like to avoid pinning the name on IMAP, that's just a storage backend.

Ted

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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Richard Stallman
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I don't see a discussion between you and Lars and the maintainers.

Yes you do.  Lars and the Emacs maintainers are on this list.

Is anyone else here concerned about the name of that file?

  > I'd like to avoid pinning the name on IMAP, that's just a storage backend.

Perhaps you should change the first line of the file, then.
It says,

  ;;; gnus-cloud.el --- storing and retrieving data via IMAP

Perhaps this ought to say

  ;;; gnus-WHAT.el --- storing and retrieving data via a mail server

How about gnus-noncloud.el?
That would make the joke clearer so we could all get it.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See https://stallman.org/skype.html.


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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Lars Ingebrigtsen
Richard Stallman <[hidden email]> writes:

> How about gnus-noncloud.el?
> That would make the joke clearer so we could all get it.

Wouldn't a name like that imply that somewhere there is such a thing as
a cloud?

The current name is an explicit joke on the concept that a "cloud"
exists.  It's just a server somewhere, and perhaps having a joke like
that as a name can be didactic.  "Hey!  There's a cloud in Emacs!
*reads manual*  Oh, it's just stores something on a server...  Is that
what all clouds are about?"

I mean, we can dream.

--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Eric Abrahamsen-2
Lars Ingebrigtsen <[hidden email]> writes:

> Richard Stallman <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> How about gnus-noncloud.el?
>> That would make the joke clearer so we could all get it.
>
> Wouldn't a name like that imply that somewhere there is such a thing as
> a cloud?
>
> The current name is an explicit joke on the concept that a "cloud"
> exists.  It's just a server somewhere, and perhaps having a joke like
> that as a name can be didactic.  "Hey!  There's a cloud in Emacs!
> *reads manual*  Oh, it's just stores something on a server...  Is that
> what all clouds are about?"
>
> I mean, we can dream.

I could have sworn that there was something called "Cloudy Gnus" at some
point, did I dream that? We could call it gnus-cloudy.el. Let people
interpret that as they will.

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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Stefan Monnier
In reply to this post by Richard Stallman
>   ;;; gnus-cloud.el --- storing and retrieving data via IMAP
>
> Perhaps this ought to say
>
>   ;;; gnus-WHAT.el --- storing and retrieving data via a mail server
>
> How about gnus-noncloud.el?

FWIW, I think "gnus-cloud" is a great color for this particular bikeshed.
But if IMAP is not meant to be the only backend, then the first line
could arguably refrain from mentioning IMAP.


        Stefan


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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Stephen Berman
In reply to this post by Lars Ingebrigtsen
On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 23:31:37 +0100 Lars Ingebrigtsen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Richard Stallman <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> How about gnus-noncloud.el?
>> That would make the joke clearer so we could all get it.
>
> Wouldn't a name like that imply that somewhere there is such a thing as
> a cloud?
>
> The current name is an explicit joke on the concept that a "cloud"
> exists.  It's just a server somewhere, and perhaps having a joke like
> that as a name can be didactic.  "Hey!  There's a cloud in Emacs!
> *reads manual*  Oh, it's just stores something on a server...  Is that
> what all clouds are about?"
>
> I mean, we can dream.

How about gnus-sky.el?  
(Though then maybe only Norwegians will get the joke.)

Steve Berman


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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Ted Zlatanov
In reply to this post by Richard Stallman
On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 17:22:42 -0500 Richard Stallman <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> I don't see a discussion between you and Lars and the maintainers.

RS> Yes you do.  Lars and the Emacs maintainers are on this list.

Let me be explicit: I need a go-ahead from the current Emacs maintainers
and from Lars to do the renaming.

>> I'd like to avoid pinning the name on IMAP, that's just a storage backend.

RS> Perhaps you should change the first line of the file, then.
RS>   ;;; gnus-cloud.el --- storing and retrieving data via IMAP

Understood. Thank you for noting that; I'll adjust the comment.

RS> How about gnus-noncloud.el?
RS> That would make the joke clearer so we could all get it.

That would make the humor more nebulous though.

Ted

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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Eli Zaretskii
> From: Ted Zlatanov <[hidden email]>
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 19:33:25 -0500
> Cc: [hidden email]
>
> Let me be explicit: I need a go-ahead from the current Emacs maintainers
> and from Lars to do the renaming.

I don't like renaming files because that makes some VCS commands fail
or work less efficiently, and makes forensics much harder and less
convenient.

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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Richard Stallman
In reply to this post by Eric Abrahamsen-2
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I could have sworn that there was something called "Cloudy Gnus" at some
  > point, did I dream that? We could call it gnus-cloudy.el. Let people
  > interpret that as they will.

I like gnus-cloudy.el.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See https://stallman.org/skype.html.


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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Richard Stallman
In reply to this post by Ted Zlatanov
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > RS> How about gnus-noncloud.el?
  > RS> That would make the joke clearer so we could all get it.

  > That would make the humor more nebulous though.

A nebulous joke is better than an invisible joke ;-).
How about gnus-nebulous.el?


--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See https://stallman.org/skype.html.


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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Richard Stallman
In reply to this post by Eli Zaretskii
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I don't like renaming files because that makes some VCS commands fail
  > or work less efficiently, and makes forensics much harder and less
  > convenient.

We can't have a policy that badly chosen file names are set in stone
and can never be changed.  Haven't any files' names been changed since
we started using Git?  How was that done?

gnus-cloud.el is fairly new, so it hasn't got a years-long history
entwined with other files.  We will not delete its history, but if
that history gets a little less convenient to access, it won't be
a big deal.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See https://stallman.org/skype.html.


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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Richard Stallman
In reply to this post by Lars Ingebrigtsen
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > How about gnus-noncloud.el?
  > > That would make the joke clearer so we could all get it.

  > Wouldn't a name like that imply that somewhere there is such a thing as
  > a cloud?

No, it wouldn't imply that.  It would only mean that this isn't a cloud.

  > The current name is an explicit joke on the concept that a "cloud"
  > exists.

You can view it as a joke -- that would be an "in joke" -- but it
is not explicitly visible as one.

If you'd like to contribute to a joke about this to Emacs, please do
it in a way that the users can see and understand.  That way, they
can appreciate it.


--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See https://stallman.org/skype.html.


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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Eli Zaretskii
In reply to this post by Richard Stallman
> From: Richard Stallman <[hidden email]>
> CC: [hidden email], [hidden email]
> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:16:47 -0500
>
>   > I don't like renaming files because that makes some VCS commands fail
>   > or work less efficiently, and makes forensics much harder and less
>   > convenient.
>
> We can't have a policy that badly chosen file names are set in stone
> and can never be changed.

There's no such policy, of course.  I'm just saying that renaming
should be avoided.

In this case, I cannot for the life of me understand what's all the
fuss about.  "Cloud" is just a word, and there's nothing wrong with it
per se.  We are not talking about cloud computing, nor about using
some cloud storage, we are talking about using the word itself.  I
cannot believe we are going to use the GNU and FSF authority and
reputation to proclaim the word "cloud" persona non-grata.

> Haven't any files' names been changed since we started using Git?
> How was that done?

This has been done, of course, and I'm annoyed every time I need to
check something about such files in Git.

> gnus-cloud.el is fairly new, so it hasn't got a years-long history
> entwined with other files.  We will not delete its history, but if
> that history gets a little less convenient to access, it won't be
> a big deal.

I say we should avoid that, and in this case I see absolutely no
reason to sustain more annoyance or inconvenience.

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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

John Wiegley-6
In reply to this post by Richard Stallman
>>>>> "RS" == Richard Stallman <[hidden email]> writes:

RS> Is anyone else here concerned about the name of that file?

I have no issue with the name gnus-cloud.el. Given the modern era, it has come
to simply mean "The data lives on someone else's computer". I don't see any
negative connotations, or misleading meaning.The data is just using Gnus to
put the data "somewhere else", and being what Gnus is, that somewhere else
happens to be an IMAP server (though really, it could be anywhere at all,
you're just using Gnus as an interface to fetch it as though it were on a
news/mail server).

--
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Eli Zaretskii
On December 19, 2017 8:09:59 AM GMT+02:00, John Wiegley <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >>>>> "RS" == Richard Stallman <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> RS> Is anyone else here concerned about the name of that file?
>
> I have no issue with the name gnus-cloud.el. Given the modern era, it
> has come
> to simply mean "The data lives on someone else's computer". I don't
> see any
> negative connotations, or misleading meaning.The data is just using
> Gnus to
> put the data "somewhere else", and being what Gnus is, that somewhere
> else
> happens to be an IMAP server (though really, it could be anywhere at
> all,
> you're just using Gnus as an interface to fetch it as though it were
> on a
> news/mail server).

AFAIU, what you say is not the issue.  No one asked to change what gnus-cloud _does_.  The issue at hand is just the _name_ of the file, and that makes very little sense to me.

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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Joakim Verona
In reply to this post by Richard Stallman
Richard Stallman <[hidden email]> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > I had some followups, last one:
>   > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2016-07/msg00617.html
>
> I looked at the old conversation.  It was said that the name
> gnus-cloud.el was a joke.  I asked, what is the joke, and no one said.
>
> Now that the file is installed, I can look at it.  I don't see
> anything in the file that is evidently a joke.  What is the joke?
>
> Back then, you said,
>
>     OK, I'll let you and Lars and the maintainers figure it out. Let's do
>     the rename, if that's the decision, after the current gnus-cloud code is
>     reviewed and merged, or it will get confusing (because the feature
>     branch currently removes the old gnus-sync.el).
>
> That time has now arrived.
>
> The file starts with this:
>
> ;;; gnus-cloud.el --- storing and retrieving data via IMAP
>
> So how about renaming it to gnus-imap.el?  That name is clear and fits
> what the program does.
>
> Or perhaps gnus-imap-sync.el; it would say more about what functionality
> the file provides.

I don't have an opininon about what this file should be named.

I can offer a small datapoint about the connotation of the word "cloud"
in the segment I work in. The "cloud" is something to be feared and
avoided, especially since the advent of the european GDPR
legislation. The term "on premise cloud", where an organization has its
own servers, does have a positive connotation though.

--
Joakim Verona
[hidden email]
+46705459454

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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Richard Stallman
In reply to this post by Eli Zaretskii
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > In this case, I cannot for the life of me understand what's all the
  > fuss about.  "Cloud" is just a word, and there's nothing wrong with it
  > per se.

The problem is in the expression "cloud computing".  It is a bogus
generalization whose use spreads confusion.

  >  We are not talking about cloud computing,

It makes no sense to "talk about cloud computing" because "cloud
computing" doesn't have a coherent meaning.  It is a confused
overgeneraligation.  When people think they are "talking about cloud
computing", that means they are under the confusion of the
overgeneraligation.

See https://gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#CloudComputing for
explanation of how that expression does harm.

    we are talking about using the word itself.

In this context, "cloud" means that something "uses cloud computing".

It could be different in another context.  For instance, in a program
for weather forecasting, "cloud" might refer to a meteorological
phenomenon.  That would not spread any confusion about computing
practices.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See https://stallman.org/skype.html.


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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Richard Stallman
In reply to this post by John Wiegley-6
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I have no issue with the name gnus-cloud.el. Given the modern era, it has come
  > to simply mean "The data lives on someone else's computer".

I wish it had such a simple and clear meaning.  Please look at
https://gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#CloudComputing for the
explanation of why the term "cloud"'s confusion has real influence and
harmful effects.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See https://stallman.org/skype.html.


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Re: The name gnus-cloud.el

Eli Zaretskii
In reply to this post by Richard Stallman
> From: Richard Stallman <[hidden email]>
> CC: [hidden email], [hidden email]
> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 11:50:42 -0500
>
>   > In this case, I cannot for the life of me understand what's all the
>   > fuss about.  "Cloud" is just a word, and there's nothing wrong with it
>   > per se.
>
> The problem is in the expression "cloud computing".  It is a bogus
> generalization whose use spreads confusion.

But gnus-cloud doesn't do or mention cloud computing.

>   >  We are not talking about cloud computing,
>
> It makes no sense to "talk about cloud computing"

We are mis-communicating: I meant to say that gnus-cloud doesn't do or
mention cloud computing.  Thus, "we are not talking" about that.

>     we are talking about using the word itself.
>
> In this context, "cloud" means that something "uses cloud computing".

No, it doesn't.  It just stands for itself.

> It could be different in another context.

The context here is the name of a file.  That context is unrelated to
anything mentioned in
https://gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#CloudComputing.

The word "cloud" is not to blame for some of its abuses.  We should
not be afraid of using "cloud" as a word.  Doing so makes us look
ridiculous at best.  I don't think we want to be like some regimes
that are afraid of certain words.

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