Re: Use no tabs in Info

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
10 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Use no tabs in Info

Miles Bader-3
On 6/1/05, Drew Adams <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I don't have a problem serious enough to warrent the change. I just don't
> see why Info should have TABs. I don't suggest this as an urgent or
> important problem, but as something that might be changed over time. If
> there is no reason for Info to use TABS, then why use them?

TAB characters are a pretty standard part of Emacs culture; a
restriction on their use would require enforcement to be effective.  A
program that doesn't deal with tabs is likely to experience them
anyway.

-Miles
--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.


_______________________________________________
Emacs-pretest-bug mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: Use no tabs in Info

Drew Adams
    > If there is no reason for Info to use TABS, then why use them?

    TAB characters are a pretty standard part of Emacs culture; a
    restriction on their use would require enforcement to be effective.  A
    program that doesn't deal with tabs is likely to experience them
    anyway.

The same argument could be made for *Help*, or Dired, or *Apropos*, or
*Buffer List*, or.... Those buffers don't use TABs, but there is no
"restriction on their use" or any explicit "enforcement" to not use TABs,
AFAIK.

People tend to perpetuate what they see there already (e.g. Info menus with
TABs or without them). The suggestion is just to untabify Info, not to
implement any ongoing "enforcement" of a no-TABs policy. The current
situation is a mixture anyway (spaces and TABs, at random), so even if a few
TABs happen to creep in after purging them once, there is still an overall
improvement (consistency, fixed-width chars).



_______________________________________________
Emacs-pretest-bug mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Use no tabs in Info

Stefan Monnier
> The same argument could be made for *Help*, or Dired, or *Apropos*, or
> *Buffer List*, or.... Those buffers don't use TABs, but there is no
> "restriction on their use" or any explicit "enforcement" to not use TABs,
> AFAIK.

AFAICT these are different situations: the TABs in info buffers don't come
from Emacs but from actual info files (generated by makeinfo, or
install-info, or by hand).


        Stefan


_______________________________________________
Emacs-pretest-bug mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: Use no tabs in Info

Drew Adams
    AFAICT these are different situations: the TABs in info buffers
    don't come
    from Emacs but from actual info files (generated by makeinfo, or
    install-info, or by hand).

True. And some Info files available have nothing to do with Emacs. And some
have nothing to do with GNU.

So perhaps getting rid of TABs in the Emacs Info files would help the Emacs
doc, but it wouldn't treat the problem generally.

Anyway, as I said:

  I don't have a problem serious enough to warrent the change.



_______________________________________________
Emacs-pretest-bug mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Use no tabs in Info

Richard Stallman
In reply to this post by Miles Bader-3
    I don't have a problem serious enough to warrent the change. I just don't
    see why Info should have TABs. I don't suggest this as an urgent or
    important problem, but as something that might be changed over time. If
    there is no reason for Info to use TABS, then why use them?

They make the file shorter.

Use of tabs is normal in GNU.  Programs are supposed to handle them.



_______________________________________________
Emacs-pretest-bug mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Use no tabs in Info

Eli Zaretskii
In reply to this post by Stefan Monnier
> From: Stefan Monnier <[hidden email]>
> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 11:28:48 -0400
> Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
>
> the TABs in info buffers don't come from Emacs but from actual info
> files (generated by makeinfo, or install-info, or by hand).

install-info doesn't change the Info files it installs in any way.

As for makeinfo, doesn't it replace TABs with spaces?  I thought it
did, at least in some situations.


_______________________________________________
Emacs-pretest-bug mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Use no tabs in Info

Stefan Monnier
>> the TABs in info buffers don't come from Emacs but from actual info
>> files (generated by makeinfo, or install-info, or by hand).

> install-info doesn't change the Info files it installs in any way.

It does: the "dir" file.


        Stefan


_______________________________________________
Emacs-pretest-bug mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Use no tabs in Info

Miles Bader-3
In reply to this post by Drew Adams
On 6/2/05, Drew Adams <[hidden email]> wrote:
>     TAB characters are a pretty standard part of Emacs culture; a
>     restriction on their use would require enforcement to be effective.  A
>     program that doesn't deal with tabs is likely to experience them
>     anyway.
>
> The same argument could be made for *Help*, or Dired, or *Apropos*, or
> *Buffer List*, or.... Those buffers don't use TABs, but there is no
> "restriction on their use" or any explicit "enforcement" to not use TABs,

Those are automatically generated buffers; the code which generates
them was written once, and the author happened not to use tab
characters when doing so.  This says _nothing_ about the difficulty of
enforcing a restriction on the authors of new texinfo files, or of
otherwise influencing them to do so.

> People tend to perpetuate what they see there already (e.g. Info menus with
> TABs or without them). The suggestion is just to untabify Info, not to
> implement any ongoing "enforcement" of a no-TABs policy. The current
> situation is a mixture anyway (spaces and TABs, at random), so even if a few
> TABs happen to creep in after purging them once, there is still an overall
> improvement (consistency, fixed-width chars).

This seems a pretty ineffective way to cause people to stop using
tabs; if you only use this method,  your program _is_ going to
encounter tabs into the indefinite future.  It would be a lot cleaner
to just deal with them.

[I know the annoyance -- I often use AWK for string processing, which
makes scanning through strings much more clumsy than just counting
their length (unlike C for instance).  But  tabs are a standard
character, and people will use them (often without even realizing it);
you can't just wish them away.]

-Miles
--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.


_______________________________________________
Emacs-pretest-bug mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Use no tabs in Info

Eli Zaretskii
In reply to this post by Stefan Monnier
> Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email],
> [hidden email], [hidden email]
> From: Stefan Monnier <[hidden email]>
> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:28:45 -0400
>
> >> the TABs in info buffers don't come from Emacs but from actual info
> >> files (generated by makeinfo, or install-info, or by hand).
>
> > install-info doesn't change the Info files it installs in any way.
>
> It does: the "dir" file.

What install-info puts into `dir' comes from the Info file it installs
(unless you use --entry or --section options, which is unusual).  So
if the Info file didn't have TABs, its entry in `dir' won't have them
either.


_______________________________________________
Emacs-pretest-bug mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Use no tabs in Info

Richard Stallman
In reply to this post by Drew Adams
I've told you my decision.  Please drop this issue.



_______________________________________________
Emacs-pretest-bug mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug