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Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Bob Proulx
A PSA (Public Service Annoucement) for help-gnu-emacs.

We have had several subscribers ask about a recent problem with
Google's Gmail rejecting the mailing list.  Indeed about 30 Gmail
subscribers were bounced off the mailing list due to Google rejecting
mail from help-gnu-emacs.  Other addresses were okay.

This happens every so often.  Google will decide that mail from a
mailing list is spam and reject all messages at SMTP mail transfer
time.  Mailman receives those bounces and counts them up for each
recipient, not knowing anything about Google but only about bounces
per recipient.  If the bounces for a recipient exceeds the Mailman
bounce threshold then Mailman turns off delivery for that recipient.
Then later Mailman will send a notice to the recipient that mail
delivery has been turned off and that they can turn it on again if
they still want it.

Why does Google do this?  I don't know.  Google is a faceless
organization and they ignore complaints.  I have never been able to
get a response from them.  Fortunately Google seems to rate limit and
expire rather than block forever.  So waiting long enough seems to
reset the problem.

But in the specific case of mail from a mailing list there is a lot of
things that look like spam but are emacs lisp code sections and
config.log files and other output that may have similar characterists
to spam but are perfectly valid email messages on technical lists.
And then if users click "Junk" instead of unsubscribing that adds
positive feedback and tips things over the edge.

Also I think Gmail users in general are a big part of the problem.
Users subscribe to a mailing list and then later decide they do not
want to be subscribed and instead of unsubscribing start to report
mailing list mail as spam.  The automated machinery at Gmail then
learns the messages from the mailing list as spam and then starts to
reject messages from the mailing list as spam.  Users I have talked to
personally just can't be bothered to unsubscribe when the "Junk"
action is so handy and do not believe they are hurting anyone else
just by clicking a box on a web page.  They are astounded when I try
to convince them otherwise.

Also the entire gnu.org subnet moved from one ISP to another ISP a
month ago.  This means that any whitelists that were in place for the
previous subnet are no longer present for the new subnet.  This
reputation service problem was a worried-about problem for the move.
No one wanted to move.  But bandwidth is donated and there was no
option but to leave one donor and move to the new donor.

Because there were a number of reports from people I thought I would
make an announcement here about it and communicate what was happening.
If someone at Gmail has been bounced off the only thing that can be
done at the moment is to wait a bit and then follow the Mailman
instructions mailed to turn mailing list delivery back on again.

I don't know what we can do about it.  But regardless I always welcome
communication from mailing list users about problems.  If nothing else
we can all sympathize together. :-}

Bob

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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Skip Montanaro
> Also I think Gmail users in general are a big part of the problem.
> Users subscribe to a mailing list and then later decide they do not
> want to be subscribed and instead of unsubscribing start to report
> mailing list mail as spam.

A couple things here. I help manage mail.python.org. We do (or at
least used to) see lots of messages which look like what you describe,
but coming from [hidden email]. I don't think laziness stops at the
gmail.com boundary. ;-)

Of perhaps more interest, when I report spam mail sent to a mailing
list to which I subscribe, Gmail will generally ask if I want to
unsubscribe to the list as well, or just report the message as spam.
If that's a general feature of how Gmail works and not just
this-feature-is-special-for-Skip, the laziness of the subscriber
wielding the mouse would be pretty astounding.

Skip Montanaro

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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Bob Proulx
Skip Montanaro wrote:
> A couple things here. I help manage mail.python.org. We do (or at
> least used to) see lots of messages which look like what you describe,
> but coming from [hidden email].

Recently Yahoo started enforcing DKIM in a restrictive way that blocks
mailing list traffic to Yahoo subscribers.  I am away from my notes at
the moment so won't try to describe the details further now.  But a
lot of people with Yahoo addresses have been suffering due to their
recent DKIM policy.

> I don't think laziness stops at the gmail.com boundary. ;-)

Agreed!  It was Gmail just recently but people are people everywhere!

> Of perhaps more interest, when I report spam mail sent to a mailing
> list to which I subscribe, Gmail will generally ask if I want to
> unsubscribe to the list as well, or just report the message as spam.

That would be nice if that is how it works.  I know it didn't at one
time but time passes and features are added and that would be a nice
way to do things now.  Hopefully they do.

> If that's a general feature of how Gmail works and not just
> this-feature-is-special-for-Skip, the laziness of the subscriber
> wielding the mouse would be pretty astounding.

Has anyone @gmail.com used that feature recently and are able to
comment if that is how it is done now?  It would be interesting to
know.  Please do not try it with help-gnu-emacs as a test or we will
be in trouble all over again!  But someone who has happened upon the
task naturally with a real spam message from a mailing list would be
the best case for information.

However I think it does not make sense to report spam that came
through a mailing list as spam to the email service provider used to
*read* the mail.  Since that will only block the entire mailing list,
or not.  And one being subscribed to the mailing list is expected to
get mail from it.  The place to report spam on a mailing list is to
the mailing list administrators so that the anti-spam can be improved
there.

I say improved not solved.  Unfortunately there is no complete
solution to spam because it is a people problem, spammers are people,
and being people are very clever.  People will always think of
something new.

But we can hopefully keep spam down to the level where it is not a
serious problem.  For example the gnu.org lists I think have quite a
good level of anti-spam.  Therefore I simply file mail from mailing
lists into my mailbox and don't use any anti-spam on the receving end
of my mailbox for them.  If you do find a spam problem on a gnu.org
list please do make a report of it to mailman AT gnu.org where we can
know about it and look into it.

Bob

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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Scott Randby
In reply to this post by Bob Proulx
Thank you for the detailed explanation. I've been removed from this list twice in the last week, but I haven't been removed from either Emacs-Devel or Emacs-Orgmode since I started subscribing to those lists years ago. Maybe I will never know why.

Scott Randby

On 2/18/19 2:40 PM, Bob Proulx wrote:

> A PSA (Public Service Annoucement) for help-gnu-emacs.
>
> We have had several subscribers ask about a recent problem with
> Google's Gmail rejecting the mailing list.  Indeed about 30 Gmail
> subscribers were bounced off the mailing list due to Google rejecting
> mail from help-gnu-emacs.  Other addresses were okay.
>
> This happens every so often.  Google will decide that mail from a
> mailing list is spam and reject all messages at SMTP mail transfer
> time.  Mailman receives those bounces and counts them up for each
> recipient, not knowing anything about Google but only about bounces
> per recipient.  If the bounces for a recipient exceeds the Mailman
> bounce threshold then Mailman turns off delivery for that recipient.
> Then later Mailman will send a notice to the recipient that mail
> delivery has been turned off and that they can turn it on again if
> they still want it.
>
> Why does Google do this?  I don't know.  Google is a faceless
> organization and they ignore complaints.  I have never been able to
> get a response from them.  Fortunately Google seems to rate limit and
> expire rather than block forever.  So waiting long enough seems to
> reset the problem.
>
> But in the specific case of mail from a mailing list there is a lot of
> things that look like spam but are emacs lisp code sections and
> config.log files and other output that may have similar characterists
> to spam but are perfectly valid email messages on technical lists.
> And then if users click "Junk" instead of unsubscribing that adds
> positive feedback and tips things over the edge.
>
> Also I think Gmail users in general are a big part of the problem.
> Users subscribe to a mailing list and then later decide they do not
> want to be subscribed and instead of unsubscribing start to report
> mailing list mail as spam.  The automated machinery at Gmail then
> learns the messages from the mailing list as spam and then starts to
> reject messages from the mailing list as spam.  Users I have talked to
> personally just can't be bothered to unsubscribe when the "Junk"
> action is so handy and do not believe they are hurting anyone else
> just by clicking a box on a web page.  They are astounded when I try
> to convince them otherwise.
>
> Also the entire gnu.org subnet moved from one ISP to another ISP a
> month ago.  This means that any whitelists that were in place for the
> previous subnet are no longer present for the new subnet.  This
> reputation service problem was a worried-about problem for the move.
> No one wanted to move.  But bandwidth is donated and there was no
> option but to leave one donor and move to the new donor.
>
> Because there were a number of reports from people I thought I would
> make an announcement here about it and communicate what was happening.
> If someone at Gmail has been bounced off the only thing that can be
> done at the moment is to wait a bit and then follow the Mailman
> instructions mailed to turn mailing list delivery back on again.
>
> I don't know what we can do about it.  But regardless I always welcome
> communication from mailing list users about problems.  If nothing else
> we can all sympathize together. :-}
>
> Bob
>
>

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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Nate Bass
In reply to this post by Bob Proulx
> Has anyone @gmail.com used that feature recently and are able to
> comment if that is how it is done now?  It would be interesting to
> know.
>

I observed 3 different behaviors when reporting spam in Gmail. Don't
worry, I did not report any GNU mailing lists :)

When reporting this current message (help-gnu-emacs) as spam Gmail
will prompt first whether you want to "Unsubscribe and report spam" or
"Report spam". Again, I did not click anything on this dialog so
help-gnu-emacs will be unaffected. Unsubscribing redirects you to
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/options/help-gnu-emacs. There is also a link
to "learn more" at https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1366858?hl=en

When reporting other lists (for example bug-make) it prompts the same
dialog except it will not give a link to unsubscribe. Instead, it will send
a
message to bug-make-request with a subject of "unsubscribe" and a body
of "This message was automatically generated by Gmail."

Oddly, when I reported [hidden email] it did not prompt anything
and went directly to spam.

On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 12:57 PM Bob Proulx <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Skip Montanaro wrote:
> > A couple things here. I help manage mail.python.org. We do (or at
> > least used to) see lots of messages which look like what you describe,
> > but coming from [hidden email].
>
> Recently Yahoo started enforcing DKIM in a restrictive way that blocks
> mailing list traffic to Yahoo subscribers.  I am away from my notes at
> the moment so won't try to describe the details further now.  But a
> lot of people with Yahoo addresses have been suffering due to their
> recent DKIM policy.
>
> > I don't think laziness stops at the gmail.com boundary. ;-)
>
> Agreed!  It was Gmail just recently but people are people everywhere!
>
> > Of perhaps more interest, when I report spam mail sent to a mailing
> > list to which I subscribe, Gmail will generally ask if I want to
> > unsubscribe to the list as well, or just report the message as spam.
>
> That would be nice if that is how it works.  I know it didn't at one
> time but time passes and features are added and that would be a nice
> way to do things now.  Hopefully they do.
>
> > If that's a general feature of how Gmail works and not just
> > this-feature-is-special-for-Skip, the laziness of the subscriber
> > wielding the mouse would be pretty astounding.
>
> Has anyone @gmail.com used that feature recently and are able to
> comment if that is how it is done now?  It would be interesting to
> know.  Please do not try it with help-gnu-emacs as a test or we will
> be in trouble all over again!  But someone who has happened upon the
> task naturally with a real spam message from a mailing list would be
> the best case for information.
>
> However I think it does not make sense to report spam that came
> through a mailing list as spam to the email service provider used to
> *read* the mail.  Since that will only block the entire mailing list,
> or not.  And one being subscribed to the mailing list is expected to
> get mail from it.  The place to report spam on a mailing list is to
> the mailing list administrators so that the anti-spam can be improved
> there.
>
> I say improved not solved.  Unfortunately there is no complete
> solution to spam because it is a people problem, spammers are people,
> and being people are very clever.  People will always think of
> something new.
>
> But we can hopefully keep spam down to the level where it is not a
> serious problem.  For example the gnu.org lists I think have quite a
> good level of anti-spam.  Therefore I simply file mail from mailing
> lists into my mailbox and don't use any anti-spam on the receving end
> of my mailbox for them.  If you do find a spam problem on a gnu.org
> list please do make a report of it to mailman AT gnu.org where we can
> know about it and look into it.
>
> Bob
>
>
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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Jean-Christophe Helary-3
In reply to this post by Bob Proulx


> On Feb 19, 2019, at 5:56, Bob Proulx <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I don't think laziness stops at the gmail.com <http://gmail.com/> boundary. ;-)
>
> Agreed!  It was Gmail just recently but people are people everywhere!

There may be laziness, but also a lot of discoverability and basic knowledge issues. I don't think most modern mail users know that unsubscribe information is given in the list mail header. Also, in "modern" mail clients there is no practical way to see that information (why would people want to check the source of a message ?)

But I do understand this comment is slightly besides the point. :)

Jean-Christophe Helary
-----------------------------------------------
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune


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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Eli Zaretskii
In reply to this post by Scott Randby
> From: Scott Randby <[hidden email]>
> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 17:01:07 -0500
>
> Thank you for the detailed explanation. I've been removed from this list twice in the last week, but I haven't been removed from either Emacs-Devel or Emacs-Orgmode since I started subscribing to those lists years ago. Maybe I will never know why.

Because each time mailman blocks you in emacs-devel, I manually
unblock you.  This happens once every few weeks, very annoying.

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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Kaushal Modi
On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 10:35 PM Eli Zaretskii <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Because each time mailman blocks you in emacs-devel, I manually
> unblock you.  This happens once every few weeks, very annoying.
>

Thank you!

I also recently was asked to reconfirm my Gmail email on help-gnu-emacs ..
thanks for making my emacs-devel experience seamless too.
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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Bob Proulx
In reply to this post by Jean-Christophe Helary-3
Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> There may be laziness, but also a lot of discoverability and basic
> knowledge issues. I don't think most modern mail users know that
> unsubscribe information is given in the list mail header.

Not having grown up with it people now arriving on the scene and using
it are using the mailers that have been marketed to them.  They now
have no idea how mail works.  It all might as well be magic to them.
If it truly were magic there would be no difference to them.

> Also, in "modern" mail clients there is no practical way to see that
> information (why would people want to check the source of a message?)
>
> But I do understand this comment is slightly besides the point. :)

I keep thinking that people will see how bad the Gmail/Outlook
interface to mail is and will leave them to use better ones.  IIRC
they don't even show you the email address of the user!  Insanity!  I
would never tolerate that in a mail client.  And as you can see I
haven't ever because I am not using them.  But I know that a *LOT* of
people use them but I am astounded that they do.  There truly is no
hope for the human race. :-(

Bob

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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Jean-Christophe Helary-3


> On Feb 19, 2019, at 14:23, Bob Proulx <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Not having grown up with it people now arriving on the scene and using
> it are using the mailers that have been marketed to them.  They now
> have no idea how mail works.  It all might as well be magic to them.
> If it truly were magic there would be no difference to them.

I started mailing in 95 from a private ISP and it was not obvious then either :)
A lot of people literally *grow up* with modern interfaces now, so it's a loosing battle.

> I keep thinking that people will see how bad the Gmail/Outlook
> interface to mail is and will leave them to use better ones.

Even offline clients GUI does not give easy access to that information. For ex, when I display "All headers" in my client (Apple's Mail.app) I only get a greyed out list of seemingly meaningless strings.

I'd love to have a client that displays "List-Unsubscribe: ⁨<https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/options/help-gnu-emacs>⁩" as an actual *link* to the ressource. Silly question: do such clients exist ? :)


Jean-Christophe Helary
-----------------------------------------------
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune


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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Bob Proulx
In reply to this post by Nate Bass
Nate Bass wrote:
> I observed 3 different behaviors when reporting spam in Gmail. Don't
> worry, I did not report any GNU mailing lists :)

Awesome! :-)

> When reporting this current message (help-gnu-emacs) as spam Gmail
> will prompt first whether you want to "Unsubscribe and report spam" or
> "Report spam". Again, I did not click anything on this dialog so
> help-gnu-emacs will be unaffected. Unsubscribing redirects you to
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/options/help-gnu-emacs. There is also a link

That is the List-Unsubscribe header specified URL.  Good.

> to "learn more" at https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1366858?hl=en

Also reasonable but that documentation answer looked old and stale as
it did not mention the new behavior of unsubscribing.  Guessing that
the behavior was updated to unsubscribe but all of the nooks and
crannies where documentation such as the above was stuff has not been
updated.

> When reporting other lists (for example bug-make) it prompts the
> same dialog except it will not give a link to unsubscribe. Instead,
> it will send a message to bug-make-request with a subject of
> "unsubscribe" and a body of "This message was automatically
> generated by Gmail."

There is no difference between bug-make and help-gnu-emacs as both are
on the same server running the same software.  The only difference I
can think of here is if you were subscribed using different addresses
for one than the other causing Gmail to think you were subscribed for
one but not for the other.  Or something like that.  Because they are
otherwise identically run.

Please look at the message headers and see if they are different
coming to you.  I think the Gmail interface is the more actions or
something where it says "show original message" or something similarly
worded.

> Oddly, when I reported [hidden email] it did not prompt anything
> and went directly to spam.

Please check the headers of that message too.  Perhaps that one did
not have the standard List-* headers and did not have a
List-Unsubscribe header?  If not then there would have been no way for
automated machinery to know.  But on the other hand if those do exist
for that message than that is strange that it would be different.

Thanks for the report!  Good stuff.

Bob

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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Stephen Berman
In reply to this post by Jean-Christophe Helary-3
On Tue, 19 Feb 2019 14:36:52 +0900 Jean-Christophe Helary <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'd love to have a client that displays "List-Unsubscribe:
> ⁨<https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/options/help-gnu-emacs>⁩" as an actual *link* to
> the ressource. Silly question: do such clients exist ? :)

Gnus shows such links in the headers if they are available, when you
type `t' (gnus-summary-toggle-header) on the article in the *Summary*
buffer.  For example, for your post, before toggling with `t' I see
this:

From: Jean-Christophe Helary <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces
Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help
To: Bob Proulx <[hidden email]>, help-gnu-emacs <[hidden email]>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 14:36:52 +0900

After typing `t' I see this:

Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail
From: Jean-Christophe Helary <[hidden email]>
Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help
Subject: Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 14:36:52 +0900
Approved: [hidden email]
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
References: <[hidden email]>
        <CANc-5UxfwJ=[hidden email]>
        <[hidden email]>
        <[hidden email]>
        <[hidden email]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\))
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        logging-data="154803"; mail-complaints-to="[hidden email]"
To: Bob Proulx <[hidden email]>, help-gnu-emacs <[hidden email]>
Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=[hidden email] Tue Feb 19 06:37:17 2019
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Original-Received: from [192.168.0.4] (opt-183-176-139-235.client.pikara.ne.jp.
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In-Reply-To: <[hidden email]>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3)
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In the line starting "List-Unsubscribe" the links are even clickable
(likewise with the links in the other lines).

Steve Berman

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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Scott Randby
In reply to this post by Eli Zaretskii
On 2/18/19 10:35 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> From: Scott Randby <[hidden email]>
>> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 17:01:07 -0500
>>
>> Thank you for the detailed explanation. I've been removed from this list twice in the last week, but I haven't been removed from either Emacs-Devel or Emacs-Orgmode since I started subscribing to those lists years ago. Maybe I will never know why.
>
> Because each time mailman blocks you in emacs-devel, I manually
> unblock you.  This happens once every few weeks, very annoying.

Well, you have my thanks and gratitude. I think I will set up an email account just for mailing lists using a different service, subscribe to lists using that account, and unsubscribe my gmail address.

Scott

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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Eli Zaretskii
In reply to this post by Jean-Christophe Helary-3
> From: Jean-Christophe Helary <[hidden email]>
> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 11:29:40 +0900
> Cc: [hidden email]
>
> There may be laziness, but also a lot of discoverability and basic knowledge issues. I don't think most modern mail users know that unsubscribe information is given in the list mail header.

They get a reminder once a month, so they just need to pay attention
(or even archive one such reminder for each list, to have it available
when needed).

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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Eli Zaretskii
In reply to this post by Scott Randby
> From: Scott Randby <[hidden email]>
> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 10:07:45 -0500
>
> > Because each time mailman blocks you in emacs-devel, I manually
> > unblock you.  This happens once every few weeks, very annoying.
>
> Well, you have my thanks and gratitude. I think I will set up an email account just for mailing lists using a different service, subscribe to lists using that account, and unsubscribe my gmail address.

It's not your fault.  Which is why I do it every time I see a
"blocked" message, which mailman sends to me as the list admin.  It is
also not limited to gmail, AFAIR.

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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Bob Proulx
Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> It's not your fault.  Which is why I do it every time I see a
> "blocked" message, which mailman sends to me as the list admin.

I haven't been so kind and generous.  There are so many mailing lists
that I filter out all of the mailman administrivia messages.  Eli has
gone above and beyond to take care of emacs-devel and others he is
maintaining.

> It is also not limited to gmail, AFAIR.

Agreed.  It will be caused by any of the email service providers that
decide to reject email for a while.  Recently Yahoo has also been a
problem too.  It's mostly a recency and scale of the problem thing.
Gmail has become the 800lb gorilla.

Bob

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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Eli Zaretskii
> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 10:01:49 -0700
> From: Bob Proulx <[hidden email]>
>
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > It's not your fault.  Which is why I do it every time I see a
> > "blocked" message, which mailman sends to me as the list admin.
>
> I haven't been so kind and generous.  There are so many mailing lists
> that I filter out all of the mailman administrivia messages.  Eli has
> gone above and beyond to take care of emacs-devel and others he is
> maintaining.

I really don't see how we can leave this to the subscribers
themselves: they just silently stop getting any messages from the
list, and it's anybody's guess when will they notice.  IMO, it would
be prudent if people who oversee GNU lists and configure mailman could
do something to prevent this automatic blocking, because it makes no
sense to me: why do we care so much about a bounced message?  But if
this wouldn't happen, I can't see how could I NOT unblock subscribers
who fell victim to this atrocity.  It sounds the same part of my
duties as reviewing messages held for moderation.

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Alternative mail providers (was: Google Gmail mailing list bounces)

Amin Bandali-4
In reply to this post by Scott Randby
Thanking Eli, Bob, and everyone else volunteering their time to ensure a
smooth experience for users of lists.gnu.org, it may not be a bad time
to encourage people to move off of the few giant providers (which among
other things, continuously make things more difficult for everyone else)
and to try and run their own mail server for themselves and their family
and friends, or consider using smaller and less-hostile alternatives.

Examples of “small” community-based projects include disroot.org,
weho.st, and teknik.io.  Other providers worth looking into may be
Tutanota, ProtonMail, or FastMail.  Ultimately, though, I’d recommend
running your own if you can.  Container-based solutions like Mailu [1]
or mailcow [2] with sane defaults could be very decent starting points.

[1]: https://mailu.io
[2]: https://mailcow.email

There are relevant threads on the Trisquel forum every now and then:
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/email-provider-riseupnet-or-disrootorg

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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Stefan Monnier
In reply to this post by Bob Proulx
>> It is also not limited to gmail, AFAIR.
> Agreed.  It will be caused by any of the email service providers that
> decide to reject email for a while.

Isn't it "all" due to DKIM?
At least on the one mailing-list I setup here, my gmail users were
blocked because of DKIM (more specifically, whenever someone from
a DKIM-using domain sent a mail to that mailing-list, Gmail would then
see this mail coming from our mailing-list host instead of from one of the
DKIM-approved hosts for that sender) and would block it.

So I had to enable a specific hack in the mailing-list config, which
causes the headers to look different (the "From:" mentions the name of
the real sender but has the email address of the mailing-list, which is
rather annoying).  I don't see such munging in the gnu.org mailing
lists, so I suspect they suffer from the same problem.

Basically, the blocking done by gmail means they block all "normal"
mailing-list traffic and I'm not sure how it can be fixed "right".


        Stefan


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Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces

Eli Zaretskii
> From: Stefan Monnier <[hidden email]>
> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 13:03:19 -0500
>
> >> It is also not limited to gmail, AFAIR.
> > Agreed.  It will be caused by any of the email service providers that
> > decide to reject email for a while.
>
> Isn't it "all" due to DKIM?

Some of it, AFAIR.  Not all of it.

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